We are hearing a lot about identity today. Join me and my friend, author and speaker Dr. Kathy Koch, as we unpack truths about today’s identity crisis. It’s not about identity…it’s about purpose. Listen in!
Transcribed version of the podcast is below
Today’s Scripture Writing Challenge Verse
- Ruth 4:13
Resources Mentioned in Podcast
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Dr. Kathy Koch (cook) is the Founder and President of Celebrate Kids, Inc., based in Fort Worth, TX, and a co-founder of Ignite the Family, based in Alpharetta, GA. She has influenced thousands of parents, teachers, and children in 30 countries through keynote messages, seminars, chapels, and other events. She is proud to be represented by the Ambassadors Speakers Bureau of Nashville, TN. She is a featured speaker for the Great Homeschool Conventions and a regular presenter for Care Net, Summit Ministries, Axis, and other organizations. She speaks regularly at schools, churches, and pregnancy resource centers.
She is also a popular guest on Focus on the Family radio and other radio talk-shows. Because of listeners’ reactions and feedback, her broadcasts about the 8 great smarts made the top ten shows of the year on Focus on the Family in both 2014 and 2016. Kirk Cameron chose her as the technology expert to interview in his 2018 movie, Connect: Real Help for Parenting Kids in a Social Media World. She has authored six books including Screens and Teens and 8 Great Smarts. Her newest book, Start with the Heart: How to Motivate Your Kids to Be Compassionate, Responsible, and Brave (even when you’re not around) was published by Moody in March.
Dr. Kathy’s practical, relevant, and results-oriented concepts and engaging, honoring, and humorous speaking style draw enthusiastic raves from children, teens, parents, and educators. They leave her events armed with new beliefs, attitudes, practical tools, and increased hope to build healthy relationships and increase success in family, life, and school.
Dr. Kathy earned a Ph.D. in reading and educational psychology from Purdue University. She was a tenured associate professor of education at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, a teacher of second graders, a middle school coach, and a school board member before becoming a full-time conference and keynote speaker in 1991. She has loved Jesus for years and her faith and desire to serve and glorify God is the foundation of her ministry.
Hey everybody, this is Heidi St. John. Welcome to the Heidi St. John podcast. Today is Friday, January the 24th, it’s meet my friend Friday and you guys know that I love to have men and women on the podcast with me who are really making a difference in the culture who are out and onto the front lines and off the sidelines and today is no exception. I’m going to have my friend Kathy Koch on the show with me today. She’s been on before and she really is a fan favorite because of her love for parents and encouraging them to disciple their children in the ways of the Lord. We’re going to talk about that today. Stick around. I think you’re going to be encouraged.
So thanks for tuning in today, everybody. Lots of things coming up on my calendar. I want to thank you guys for being here today. I cannot stress enough that we are really excited about several things that are coming up on my calendar. Today, actually I’m going to be in the Dallas, Fort Worth area for the Texas Homeschool Coalition Winter Moms Summit. And so if you’re anywhere in the area, we’d love to have you come out for that and to be just a part of what we’re doing. Now homeschooling you guys, not for the faint of heart. Can we just be honest about it for a minute? And so we really want you guys to come out and be encouraged and just to hear a message that really is on my heart to say stay in the game, stay in there with your kids. So that starts later on tonight and will be happening all day tomorrow and there’s still time to join me. So if you’re in the Houston area, I’m going to be in your neck of the woods next weekend. So coming out and we’ll spend the weekend encouraging each other. If you want more information, you can go to wintersummit.thsc.org.
Also coming up, I’m going to be in Lakeland, Florida for my women’s conference, Faith That Speaks and we are still in the early bird registration phase for that right now. We’ve got a lot of great things planned for you, so come on out. You can register for that heidistjohn.com/events.
All right. Without further ado, I want to introduce my friend to you. Kathy Koch has been on the podcast with me before and I love this woman. I love her heart for parents. I love her heart for children and to see parents and children really walking in right relationship with each other. If you’re not introduced or familiar with my friend Kathy, she’s the founder and president of Celebrate Kids and she’s based out of Fort Worth, Texas and she’s also the co-founder of Ignite the Family which is based out of Georgia and she has a conference, the Hearts 2 conference, which we’ll be talking about. I’ll be speaking for her actually coming up really soon, in March.
So she’s been on Focus on the Family. She’s a PhD. She’s super smart, but what I really love about Kathy is her heart for people really shines. Cathy Koch, welcome back to the podcast.
[Kathy] Thank you. Heidi. You are such a joy. Thank you for endorsing me the way that you do.
[Heidi] Well, it’s really my joy to do it because I’m watching what you’re doing in the culture. Working with Kirk Cameron and focused on the family and out on the road with me at lots and lots of homeschool events. You have been pouring your life into helping parents raise kids who are going to be able to thrive in the culture that we live in today. And it’s really exciting for me to watch. You’ve got a brand new book coming out and I want to kind of focus on that today. So Five to Thrive, which I was thrilled to be able to endorse releases in just a couple of weeks, February 4th. So writing a book is not for the faint of heart. It takes time and dedication and encouragement and I really love for you to share your heart as to why you decided to write this newest book.
[Kathy] Yeah, thanks. I certainly agree. I love your books as well. The title Five to Thrive, it’s five core needs that God wires into us that need to be met predominantly in him and through him, and we can talk about those. But the word thrive, I think one of the reasons I wrote the book is there are so many people, they’re barely living. I know you see that out and about, they’re breathing kind of going through the motions, maybe they’ve lost their confidence, they’ve lost their hope, they’re not thriving. And we’ve got children who aren’t thriving because maybe they don’t know who they are, or maybe they are not in good relationship with their own family or with others outside of their family. Maybe they don’t know the Lord yet. And I want people to thrive this side of heaven. Jesus came that we would have an abundant life and we can have it.
[Heidi] Right. He said, not just life. He said abundant life.
[Kathy] Exactly. We need to walk in that and we need to lean into that. And if we know the Lord, really, let’s show that to other people who don’t yet know him and make God attractive in that way. And if you’re listening and you don’t yet know the Lord, I was there for many, many years, unsettled and unsure and I can testify that it makes a difference to understand that your creator, did a good thing when he made you and that He is creating us continually. We’re not just created in the womb, we’re created continually, I think as God introduces us to people and ideas and opportunities.
[Heidi] Yeah, it’s absolutely true. And one of the things I loved about your book and I was so really honored to be able to endorse it, was that you really get to the heart of what makes people people and you teach some really beautiful truths. Five of them in fact, that relate to the five core needs that every single one of us is born into this world with. And what I loved about this was that you take those needs and you teach the reader how those needs can be met by anchoring their thoughts on the truths of God’s Word. And like I said, my endorsement, it’s not just theoretical, it works because God is the one who changes lives. And you and I have talked about this before and I kind of want to camp out on it again for listeners because one of the things we’re struggling with in the culture right now, in fact, I’d put it in the top three cultural issues that we’re really wrestling down right now, is this issue of identity and people really struggling to find an identity.
We particularly are seeing this with our youth and the answers that the world is giving to them, if you’re struggling with your gender, that’s all right. You can change your gender. If you’re struggling with who God created you to be, let’s change who God created you to be. But what you’re saying is you don’t need to change who God created you to be because he did it on purpose with a purpose. And you say it’s not an identity crisis. It’s a purpose crisis. Can you unpack that a little bit?
[Kathy] Yeah. Wow. Totally. Yeah. Identity. There is an identity crisis in our culture as you’re saying, there are people who are trying to change what they should leave alone. And there are people unwilling to change what they could change.
[Heidi] Preach it.
[Kathy] Their beliefs, their attitudes, their actions, frankly the laziness. And I was confronted with my own laziness just last night, Heidi. So I don’t want this to come across as I’m amazing and you’re not— Oh my goodness laziness is easy. But shame on us for not being willing to identify a negative character quality and work to change it. The last chapter in the book actually is about how we can change the things that we know we could change. And that includes changing the attitude toward the things that we cannot change, should not be trying to change. And the reason that I say the identity crisis is a purpose crisis is that we were created on purpose for a purpose. Ephesians 2:10, declares that we were created in advance to do good work, that we would walk in those ways.
And so if we mess with our identity, if we deny who we are, then we are robbing ourselves, our family, our churches, our culture, our communities of the very purpose that we were created for. And that’s sad and discouraging, and I get it. As an example, I have a low voice. There are people listening. If they didn’t hear the introduction and that my name is Kathy Koch, they might be thinking that I am a man and that can be really confusing to talk about gender identity. It can be confusing even for me and that I’ll preach. I mean, I’ve talked to young people about the fact that my little voice, I’ve been told by radio personalities and even Kirk Cameron, Kathy, you have a perfect voice.
I can be in a gymnasium with a 1,000 kids and have the sound system buzz so bad that we turn it off and I can be heard to the back of the auditorium because God knew what he was doing when he chose to make me me. But if I deny that and if I reject that and if I get mad every time somebody calls me sir, like I can be in a drive through restaurant, which by the way should not be called a drive through restaurant. Oh my goodness.
[Heidi] Yeah, you right.
[Kathy] I mean, who named it that? I’ve really got to do some research on that, but when I’m at the menu and I ordered my food at the microphone, they can’t see me. So they’re going to say, “That’ll be 6.83 at the windows, sir”. I don’t get mad. It’s not their fault I sound like a guy. I know I sound like a guy. I’m not going to deny that.
[Heidi] That’s a great example because we really love our offenders in the culture right now. We love to be offended and it’s almost like in our constant need to be justified, we got to find ways to be offended. And I love that you’re saying—people lighten up.
[Kathy] Exactly. Exactly. You’re so right. You’re so right about that. In fact, people are shocked when I’m not offended. Sometimes face to face, like in the grocery store, if the clerk isn’t being attentive, they’ll say, “Did you find everything okay?” And they don’t even look at you. If you still go to the grocery store to get groceries, they’re running the codes through their machine and they won’t look up, “Did you find everything?”. And I’ll say, “Yes”. And they’ll say, “That’s great sir”. And then they’ll look at me and I’m not in ribbons and bow and wearing yellow and pink person, but I’m clearly female. So they look at me and then they’re like, “I’m so sorry”. And I’m just saying, “No, it’s okay. I understand”. And Heidi, they’re looking at me like, wait, aren’t you mad?
[Heidi] Well, and the relief. I would imagine that the relief that they made an honest mistake and you’re not going to pin them to the wall for it, it’s got to be overwhelming in the culture. Especially in cancel culture. If we don’t like you, we just cancel you. Bye-bye.
[Kathy] Exactly. So why am I able to not be offended? Because I’m secure in who God made me to be and identity and belonging and purpose and competence, all rest upon our security. The security, as you know in the book, I write that that’s the firm foundation. It’s the first of the five core needs. When we know who we can trust, then we can deal with who we are and we can say that it is good. I love teaching children that God is Creator and God is a good creator and God is an intentional creator. And when I was young, I didn’t like my height, didn’t like my low voice, maybe now I see them as a blessing from God, but I choose to see it that way because I know that He creates us intentionally. When He knits us together, He knows what He’s doing and He does it with a purpose in mind.
[Heidi] If you have and I know that you meet parents who are struggling with this in their own families because this is definitely the issue. The struggle for identity is not new to humanity. We’ve been struggling with this since the dawn of time but it seems that in the last 10 years in particular, and I would say in the last three years has reached a fever pitch that this generation particularly of young people are struggling with identity in a way that most of us have never seen. And there is an element on the other side who is choosing and looking to take advantage of what we see as an identity crisis.
And I was reading in Proverbs the other day, because I’m working on a devotional for mothers. And I read in Proverbs chapter two it says, wisdom will save you from evil people, from those whose words are twisted. And I got to think in my way, if there was ever a time for parents to be able to be aware of and in tune to the voices of evil people now is the time because it seems to me that they also see this identity crisis and rather than fill the void with the truth of God’s word, which is what you are doing, they are coming in with the voices that come from wicked people and they’re twisting the truth of God’s word.
So how can we meet the needs of a generation in crisis right now? I think particularly you and I have talked about this a lot. The gender identity crisis really here in the Pacific Northwest has reached a fever pitch to the point where it’s absurd. We’ve got boys competing against girls in sports. We’ve got all manner of ridiculousness coming, partly because we’re worried about offending someone and partly because we’ve gotten so open-minded that our brains have fallen out. But how do we as Christian parents, talk to the parents right now who, let’s say their child’s been in the public school and they’re hearing this gender identity lie, which really it is a lie. Women cannot become men. Men cannot become women. It’s a biologically true fact that we are born, as you say, as God created us to be with a plan and a purpose. But let’s say that there’s a person listening to this right now and their kids, they’ve heard something on cable TV, on Disney for goodness sake, or they hear something in the news or at their school and they begin to question their own gender and maybe they were born in the wrong body. How do you encourage the parent to love that child and address the problem without twisting God’s plan for that child?
[Kathy] Wow. Yes. Way to ask an easy question.
[Heidi] You’re welcome. I’m not throwing you softballs, Kathy.
[Kathy] No. And I’m glad. I mean, and again, I just want to affirm you Heidi, your ministry is so important because the boldness that I see you proclaiming throughout social media and throughout your messages and your books really appreciate you on a standing for truth. The first thing that we have to address is, are the moms and dads comfortable in their own skin.
[Heidi] That’s good.
[Kathy] And so the work that we do with women, that you are who you are supposed to be is vital, because if a mom and a dad, if they’re regretting, if they’ve been shamed, if they don’t like who they are, if they were raised you’ll never amount to anything and they believe that lie, then they’re going to parent out of that desperation and out of that brokenness. And I want my kid to have contentment or to become who he wants to be. I wasn’t allowed to be who I wanted to be. I wanted to be a volleyball player. Dad, didn’t let me, I’m going to let my kid be whatever. So we need to deal with our own stuff and our own junk and we need to forgive and we need to reconcile and yeah, we can go on and on.
[Heidi] Well, and that goes way beyond gender. I mean, we’re talking about body image. We don’t like the color of our hair, so we change it. We don’t like the shape of our bodies and so we cover them up and we’re embarrassed and we’re ashamed. And so it definitely, this is a problem that has permeated culture in almost every area of our lives.
[Kathy] Absolutely. I know young people, for instance, who they’re mathematically inclined, but they’ve been told by somebody, math is so boring. So they choose to ignore the gifting from God and they choose to try to be an artist because it’s cool to be an artist and go to the coffee shop. No, be who you were created to be with integrity and stop apologizing and stop comparing and competing. And so, part of the dilemma is the comparisonitis that we see in our culture from social media and the easy way that we can film and video and put the picture out there and get the like factor. And so all of that I think messes with kids who are desperate to be seen, known and popular. Well do they know who they are and the rest of who they are? They’re way more than male and female. Those are important attributes, but good Lord, what are your emotions and what are your talents? What are your hobbies and what are your likes and your interest and what are your people skills and do we know that about someone?
I think that’s important. And back to, I’m kind of rambling, but back to your question, my heart is beating because this is so important. We have got to be available to our children and make sure that they are willing to come to us, and we must speak the truth of the authority of God. As you were saying, in our family we do not go by cultural norms, in our family, we don’t go by feelings, in our family, we’re not ruled by opinion, in our family, we’re not even ruled by what we think is right, in our family, we take the authority of God’s word seriously. So let’s open the word of God together and let’s have the past trend speed dial, and let’s make sure that we are in a good Bible teaching church and we’re in fellowship and iron sharpens iron.
And so part of it is, our own maturity and part of it is, are we available to our children’s heart cries and will we teach the truth and help them believe it and help them see it as good. Will we introduce them to role models? I’ve had young people say that I’ve become a role model for them because I’ve handled well what some other people might tease me for. Yeah. And Heidi, my heart goes out to these kids. Frankly, if I was young now being called sir because of my low voice, I might wonder if I was supposed to be.
[Heidi] Well and that’s where these predators are coming in because they’re seeing an opportunity and they’re coming in with a lie. And parents need to be ready with the truth. We need to be ready with the truth.
[Kathy] They do. And when your children are confident in who they are and in God and in you and your relationship, the predator won’t find them as readily and they will be able to reject that lie more readily. And we need to say, boy, Jonathan, I’m so proud of you and Katie, I’m so proud of you for coming to me with your confusion because I want to be your security and I want to be your truth and we’re going to open God’s word, and this is what it says. Let me pray for you. I mean, when kids hear us praying, Father God, would you restore Jonathan’s confidence or would you help Katie see the root of her confusion. And would you surround her at school with truth talkers and wisdom walkers and boys and girls who like her for who she is. And would you give her a vision for her tomorrows.
And I think when kids hear us pray that for them, don’t just pray that in your silence for them, although do that as well, but pray that over them so they know that we’re resting in God for them.
[Heidi] Yeah. It’s so important. It’s so important. And you have said something else I really want to hit on because I think it’s so important. Part of the message of your book is teaching the reader that not only can we find our identity in the Lord who created us, but then once we are secure in that we can turn around and we can begin to meet the needs of other people that are around us. That God created us to live in community, that he wants us to be his hands and his feet. He wants our faith to speak and to bring hope and healing. What does that look like? So when we’re starting to get past like the point where we’re insecure, we’re realizing, Oh my goodness, my security comes in the Lord and because God made me this way, then I can take what God has given me and I can begin to sow seeds of faith and goodness and hope into the life of somebody else. What does that look like for a mom right now who’s looking at herself and she’s wondering what her purpose is?
My grandmother said to me a long time ago, I was feeling sorry for myself. My grandma was not much of a wallower. So I grew up in a very unhappy, very dysfunctional abusive home and nobody knew that better than my grandmother. And there was a point in my life when I just felt like, Lord, why did you allow this to happen to me? I’m never going to be whole again. I literally felt like I was never going to be whole. And my grandmother said, at some point, I mean she was talking to me about how the Lord loved me and he created me on purpose with a purpose in all of those things and I was still struggling. And she finally said, you might want to think about looking at somebody else. You might want to think about saying, Lord, how can I help somebody else? How can I be a part of someone else’s healing? And maybe God will use that to finish the healing in your own life. And she was right.
She was right kind of pulling me out of this victim mentality which I had been existing in, and focusing my attention on somebody else and thereby in meeting that other person’s need, God was healing my own heart too. Have you seen that true in the lives of the women that you minister to?
[Kathy] Absolutely. I think the healthier we are, the greater the likelihood that we’re going to communicate out of that wholeness and I absolutely agree that if there’s brokenness it often is healed as we see God use that brokenness, as we can see somebody else’s brokenness and say, whoa, don’t go down that path. I’ve been there, done that, been there longer than you, could I help you do a U-turn. I think kids benefit from us being vulnerable and transparent. I tell parents all the time that admitting your challenges doesn’t weaken your authority, it can strengthen it as you demonstrate why you needed God and His word and why you needed Christ like people in your world and how that made a difference to you. So absolutely, yeah. Truth in communication is important. I think, not letting their kids lie to themselves.
I talk a lot in this book about being honest with them and talking about the present. “No, you’re not clumsy anymore. Why do you keep saying that you’re clumsy?” Just the other day, Heidi, I was counseling with a girl who I’m just kind of mentoring a little bit and she used a phrase that used to be true. I’ve known this woman for 10 years. So it was a true statement in the past, but she’s allowed herself to still be ruled by this belief and it’s no longer true. And I heard her say it yesterday here in my office and I jumped her all over that. I’m like, wait a second. No, no, no. Wait, what did you just say? Now, that’s no longer true of you. And I taught her a new way to say it. I had to teach her a new phrase, a new way to think of herself and that’s where I think love enters in. Do we know them? And do we want them to know who they are and wrestle with the lie and show them truth.
Kids need to be taught, even adults need to be taught, not told, but taught that takes more time, takes more words, takes more effort.
[Heidi] We don’t like that. We want our best life now. Come on.
[Kathy] We do. We do. For sure. For sure.
[Heidi] We don’t want to take the long way.
[Kathy] No, and I think this is where moms and dads have to have a security and a good identity and a healthy belonging and they have to know that their purpose is to engage the family and that they’ve got to be competent, which is why they dig into God’s word and go to church and pray and all those kinds of things. Because again, the more confident that we are, the more whole that we are, the greater likelihood that our kids are going to have your care as well.
[Heidi] I love that word that you use because this is I think a theme of your life. Since I have known you have been listening to the healing and the hope that you bring to families and that word whole is kind of a theme of this book too because what you’re doing in a Five to Thrive is you’re teaching very gently which is your style, which I love so much, how we were really created to be you say whole and known and free. There’s healing there.
[Kathy] Absolutely. And we want our listeners to believe that for themselves. Hole is H-O-L-E, they have a hole it’s just awkward and uncomfortable and there are probably some legitimate reasons that people are incomplete, but oh my goodness, God wants to come in and enter into that brokenness and heal you and make you whole with a W-H-O-L-E and make sure that your needs are met permanently and authentically through the triune guide. We’re never going to meet our needs and our popularity and our income and our career, and I work at this place. What street do you live on? No. What’s your grade point average? No. Those are temporary things that expand who we are, if you will. But oh my goodness, to come back to God always.
[Heidi] Yeah, it’s beautiful and there really is freedom in it and something else with the culture is screaming at us today is this is the way to be free come over here. But really our freedom comes from knowing who God created us to be. And when we do that then we become whole and we become known. And known first by the creator and then by people around us because we can live in authenticity. It’s a beautiful story and I hope a lot, a lot of people are going to buy this book because I think it’s one of the core cultural messages that needs to go out today to families. Really quickly. I want to talk about, you have a women’s conference which is coming up in Peoria, Illinois on March 6th and 7th. That’s the Hearts 2 Conference. And I’m super excited because I’m going to get to come and speak this year, which I’m thrilled about. Why did you decide that of all the things that you’re doing, did you say let’s do a women’s conference?
[Kathy] Exactly. A good question. So I’m the founder and president of Celebrate Kids. We’re about 28 and a half years old, but I’m the co-founder of Ignite the Family. And because I believe in the family, I believe that God has ordained the family unit. Mom, dad, 2.5 kids and the dog, I mean, it’s grandmas and grandpas and aunts and uncles and cousins and it’s God’s first thing. Genesis chapter one. I mean, it starts with the family. So it’s a big deal and the family needs to be supported. Moms need to get away and spend some time together and laugh and cry and worship and learn and be filled. And you do this in your ministry, Heidi because we know that the mom matters so much. Women matter separate from the fact that they might be apparent but the mom, oh my goodness, so important.
So yeah, Moms 2 conference. It’s about shaping, we believe that God shapes us intentionally and then we are continually shaped through experiences we’ve had and counters that we’ve had. And we are delighted that you said yes when we invited you to come and speak. So Peoria, Illinois, March 6th and 7th, ignitethefamily.org moms can go there, and our moms of all ages and stages, we’ll have grandparents, we’ll have family reunions, we’ll have church women’s groups come. So we’d really love to see people who know and love your work. Come and hear what you do and meet the rest of us. We have a surprise guest who is going to absolutely women will lean in. It will be compelling. It will be a life changing experience. You, I think, and Susanna, myself and Jill Savage will be there and we’ve got a professional comedian, we’ve got great worship. It’s going to be a great time.
And this particular guest too, we’re not naming in advance is going to inspire moms to believe in the depth of their being. That they can have more from their life than they think they can have. We’re excited.
[Heidi] I’m excited too. It’s such an honor really to partner with you and bring this hope and encouragement to families everywhere, in particularly mothers through this woman’s conference. So I will link back to that in the show notes today, March 6th and 7th in Peoria, Illinois. And in the meantime, your new book Five to Thrive is going to be on store shelves on February the 4th, and we’re going to do a giveaway here at the podcast. We’re going to be giving away three copies of your book and if you guys are interested, there’s a couple things we’re going to ask you to do if you want to be eligible to get that book sent to you. But I’m going to encourage you to read it. I was really encouraged when she sent me the manuscript and there were a couple, I just highlighted it like crazy and I remember reading a couple of things out loud to Jay, to my husband and he just said, boy, the ministry Kathy that God has given you really is not only life affirming but it is life changing and I want to thank you for using the voice that God so beautifully gave you to bring hope and healing into the culture today. You are a treasure.
[Kathy] Thank you so much. I’m honored to be a part of what you’re doing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I very much value the voice that you have as well. Honored to be here today. Thank you.
[Heidi] Thank you my friend. For more information on Dr Kathy Koch and her ministry to families. You can go to heidistjohn.com/podcast and the show notes will be there and also I want to encourage you, we will link back to registration for the moms conference, which is happening March 6th and 7th in Peoria and there’ll be a chance for you to enter to win one of three copies of Five to Thrive. Or if you’re just like, forget this, I don’t want to do that. I just want the book and I know, we will also link back to where you can purchase Five to Thrive. Kathy Koch is always an honor to have you on the broadcast.
[Kathy] God bless you. Thank you.
[Heidi] Thanks for listening everybody. We really appreciate your time. Don’t forget, this is a great time to join me at momstronginternational.com, a brand new Bible study going to release in just a few days, and we want to do life with you in the word. So check it out, momstronginternational.com have a great weekend everybody, and I’ll see you back here on Monday.
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Heidi St. John
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