Getting and staying organized is a challenge—but throw in motherhood and you’ve got yourself a real challenge. Join me today as my friend, author Kristi Clover and I dish about real life motherhood and simple solutions to tame the clutter at home. Be sure to pick up Kristi’s new book, M.O.M. “Master Organizer of Mayhem!”
Transcribed version of the podcast is below.
Today’s Scripture Writing Challenge Verse
- Hebrews 1:8-9
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I am a home organization and efficiency expert. But don’t be tricked, I’m one of the most organized, messy people you’ll ever meet. I am a homeschooling mom of five kids ranging in age from 6 – 17 years old. We have three boys and two girls. Aside from family and chocolate (Wait, did I mention that I love chocolate?!!) I am passionate about encouraging and inspiring families by offering simple solutions for a more joy-filled life.
My husband and I have been married for 22 years. He’s the analytic genius in the family. I’m the creative extrovert. My family and I call San Diego, California home I am a down-to-earth writer and an energetic speaker. I love sharing my adventures in motherhood and home life on my Simply Joyful podcast, and on social media as @KristiClover.
Hey everybody. This is Heidi St. John. Welcome to the podcast. Today is Friday, October 4th. This is episode number 827 and as promised, my friend, author and speaker Kristi Clover is here with me today. We’re going to be talking about her brand new book, M.O.M.–Master Organizer of Mayhem. You guys are going to have fun with us today.
Stick around, I think you’re going to be encouraged.
All right you guys. So a couple of little housekeeping things before we get going with Kristi today. You know that my women’s conference, Faith That Speaks, is coming up in the Vancouver area on October the 12th from nine to five. This is going to be a great day for you guys to come on out and get encouraged about your walk with the Lord and how you can get off the bench and onto the battlefield. How your faith can actually speak from your life of the grace and the mercy and the healing that comes from Jesus.
So come on out, Faith That Speaks, October 12th. Saturday, October 12th. More information is on my website, heidistjohn.com/events.
Also most of my staff is flying out for that event, and so come on out and you can meet them. They’ll be here from New Jersey and Oklahoma and Texas. So I’m excited for you guys to meet the women that really help me behind the scenes and are a huge part of the heartbeat of MomStrong International. All right, without further ado, I want to introduce a friend of mine to you. My friend Kristy Clover is an author and a speaker. She’s also just a wonderful human being who is really good at home organization.
She’s got a couple of kids we’re going to talk to you guys about and a really sweet man that she calls her husband, I believe his name is Steve. Kristi, welcome to the podcast girl.
Kristi: Aw, thank you so much for having me, and yes, Steve, he is my man.
Heidi: Steve’s your main squeeze. You guys have five kids together, right?
Kristi: Lot of kids. Yeah so just a couple.
Heidi: Just a couple? Hey man, Jay’s always saying once you got over two you’re outnumbered.
Kristi: Oh yeah. You go into zone defense at that time…
Heidi: You just kind of, yeah. So the range and age of your kids is what? I can’t remember.
Kristi: Oh yeah. So grant is 17 and then Blake’s 16, Wade is 11 and then my girls Ashlynn and Kaitlin are eight and six so…
Heidi: So six to 17?
Kristi: Oh yes. Six to 17 is a gap. From teens, Grant just started his first job at Chick-fil-A.
Heidi: Hey that should be everybody’s first job.
Kristi: It’s so amazing, they’re just great. So yeah this is week two for him.
Heidi: Has he started to say, “My pleasure.” at the house.
Kristi: No, I keep teasing him though.
Heidi: Yeah, you’re like if you say, “Clean your room.” and he should say, “My pleasure.”
Kristi: Exactly, I think it’s good practice for everyone. Everyone should go and do a little bit of training at Chick-fil-A just to develop that habit.
Heidi: I mean, I think before you run for an elected office, you should work at Chick-fil-A. It would totally help your communication skills.
Heidi: Maybe we can get along with people. I don’t know, that’d be so weird.
Kristi: I know. Really again, everyone should do it.
Heidi: So you and I, I’m trying to figure out when we met the first time, and I can’t remember.
Kristi: Where was it. I met you back at CHEA, so that’s Christian Home Educators Association in Pasadena, California. And we met, you were speaking and I was sitting in the audience. I’m like, man, that would be really fun to do. I think I ran into you in the hallway at some point I’m like, “You know what? I think I want to do what you do. I love it.” Then you’re like, “Awesome.”
Heidi: Awesome, hey you know what? We need more people out there speaking the truth. There’s a lot of room around the table. I always feel like every time I get an opportunity to have an author or speaker on the show, I always feel like there’s so much chaos in the culture right now. That the more Christian voices that we can hear that can help bring up a mom back to center and say, “Hey, no, this is the way, walk this way, nope walk this way, over here, over here.”
Heidi: And then you’ve got people who’ve been doing this for a long time, like my friend Dr. Dobson, and they’re looking for more help and more voices and so I’m thrilled. I’m thrilled with what you’re doing, girl.
Kristi: Well thank you, and I get so discouraged when I hear women who are interested in kind of getting out there and whether it’s writing or podcasting, just whatever it is. And they’re like, “Oh, but there’s already so many people out there.” And I’m like, “Do you not know that God made you unique and you have a unique voice.” And like come on, join the party.
Heidi: That’s Right.
Kristi: Join the chaos.
Heidi: It’s totally right, and those voices are unique. I think the hard thing, and this was certainly been true for me, because I’ve been doing this for a long, long time, and I feel like the hard thing sometimes is just finding your unique voice. I think sometimes it’s easy to, we hear somebody and we, “Oh, we want to do it like that person.” But that’s not necessarily how God made us. Our voice is different. I had a season, I think I talked to you about this a while ago, when I had so many people telling me what to do and how to do it, that it really stole my voice from me and I tripped up and sort of fell over myself because I wasn’t listening to the Lord anymore. I was listening to just voices of people who I felt were important, saying, “Oh no, don’t talk about that.” And, “Oh be careful.”” But we got to listen to the Lord.
Kristi: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that is the key, because I think it’s too easy to feel like, “Oh this is the standard, this is the cookie cutter that I need to fit into.” And yeah, we can’t do that. It doesn’t make me happy and if I’m not authentic and real then that no one’s going to like that.
Heidi: Yeah right. Yeah, you do you. You do you.
Kristi: Yeah I do me really, really well, and so when I do me, then everybody’s happy. Well, I don’t know. Sometimes not, maybe “me” needs a little bit of a filter.
Heidi: I love it.
Kristi: Oh in fact, I have to tell you something before you move on. Okay, I laughed so hard because I said something in an interview and I came out and I told Steve, I’m like, “Man, I don’t know if I said that right.” Maybe I was kind of pushing the envelope because I’m not necessarily the girl you’d come to to get political or get controversial. I have no problem talking about it and going there, but I did in this interview and I kind of giggled and I was like, “Oh, I don’t know.” And he’s like, “honey, if Heidi St. John says half the stuff that she says, I don’t think you’re ever going to be controversial.” So I was like, “Okay good, you’re right.”
Heidi: “I feel better now” and hopefully people won’t lob little voice grenades at you over Facebook. So when that happens, give me a call. Well we could sit here and talk about all kinds of things all day long, obviously, because that’s who we are. I really want to introduce listeners to the book that you just wrote, which I was really happy to write an endorsement for, which I super tickled, made it to the back of the book.
Kristi: It did.
Heidi: That’s always like whenever you write an endorsement, you’re secretly hoping that it makes it to the back of the book. Like it’s nice to be in the front cover, but the back of the book is where you really want to be. And I love this because it’s so practical, you like to organize and I feel like there are seasons when moms will feel really on top of the organization and then you go into another season where you’re just like, “Whoa”, and you kind of feel overwhelmed. And this book is just chock-full of practical simple ways to calm clutter and just reclaim your joy. Because I feel like you’re really good at just telling moms, “You’re going to be okay, you’re going to be okay. Just hold my hand and let’s walk through the Lego mess together and you’re going to be okay.” So you’re talking about helping moms stay on top of their day and really make it to the end of your day with a fair amount of joy, like just a happier home, right?
Kristi: Oh yeah. It’s so funny because I always giggle when people are like your subtitle says joy. Like really, housekeeping? House organization, joy? Right.
Heidi: Right. It does bring joy though.
Kristi: It does, but even beyond that, I want women, and families really, just whomever is in your home. I want you guys to all stop thinking that your house has to be perfect. I love… See, let Joanna Gaines be Joanna Gaines.
Kristi: You be you. You know that is the thing.
Heidi: That Joanna.
Kristi: I love Joanna Gaines, but my house is not going to look like hers 24/7 and I guarantee you her house doesn’t look like it does on TV 24/7.
Heidi: No, it doesn’t.
Kristi: And Jeanys got five kids now so she gets it. She’s in there with us.
Heidi: I’m thinking it only looks like that like two hours out of the day.
Kristi: Oh yeah.
Heidi: I give it two hours max.
Kristi: Yes, it’s just hard. Everyone needs to realize it’s hard. And I always joke that if you ever see something online, just imagine what it looks like behind the camera. Like behind the person taking the shot. That’s where the mess has been moved. But yeah, I want women to experience joy by first letting go of their expectations of perfection. I want them to be more efficient in their home and I think when you start tackling those little jobs that are driving you crazy in your house, then that’s where the joy starts coming in.
Heidi: Yep, I think it’s true and ain’t nobody very flourishy in chaos. Like we just don’t flourish in chaos, at least I don’t. I’m the girl that has look just… I need my house to be relatively clean or at least it doesn’t have to be perfect I don’t want to be tripping over things all day long. And what I really don’t like is the stack of mail that’s in my office that just kind of pile, pile, pile, pile, pile until like one Saturday I got to get in there and actually take care of it.
But you came up with what you called 10 foundational rules, and I thought it was interesting because I love that you call them foundational because as I looked at them, I was like, “Oh, that’s foundation.” Because if you don’t get those things right, then you don’t have anything to build on. So how did you come up with them and can you share with listeners just a little bit about those 10 foundational rules?
Kristi: Yeah. Well, what’s really crazy about this is that 13 years ago is when I first started speaking on this topic. I actually sat down, I was asked to speak on home organization. I remember I laugh a little bit thinking like— “okay, why?”
Heidi: That means that you’ve got to organize your home.
Kristi: I know, I’m like— “this person’s been to my house”— but I think it was…what I’ve come to kind of understand is that the reason they wanted to see that is because I had a husband who traveled, I had two tiny children at that time and my friends would come over on like a weekday and see the house just normal. Toys out, dishes out or whatever. But they’d come over a few days later for like a party or something that we’d be hosting and the house is completely cleaned up and they… I remember one friend actually, she’s like, “Okay, where is it?” I’m like, “Where’s what?” She’s like, “where’s all the stuff?” And I’m like, “Well I just kind of have these systems.” And I think that’s what kept throwing people off is that I had these systems. So when I sat down to write this talk, M.O.M.–Master Organizer of Mayhem, I kind of asked myself like, what are the 10 things?
And I didn’t set out to write 10 but that’s how it kind of ended up. So what are some things that when I’m actually doing all of them at the same time, probably the most—so I’m not perfect at this. In fact, I’m really bad at a few of them like the baby steps, I am horrible at because I think I’m a little ADD in how I approached my home organization. I’ll start a project in one room and then see a project in another room and then I’ll get distracted.
Heidi: I think that’s a thousands years old. Isn’t that the if you give a mom a mocha kind of a thing?
Kristi: I have not head that, that’s perfect.
Heidi: I’ll send it to you because I actually wrote something called, “If you give a mom a Mocha.” And it’s probably been 10 years since I wrote it.
Kristi: Oh my goodness.
Heidi: Just in the throws of having seven young children at home. They were probably teens at that point because Savannah’s 28 now goodness sake.
Kristi: What? Oh my goodness.
Heidi: So I know, let’s not talk about it. Anyway, I wrote this like if you give a mom a mocha, kind of like if you give a mouse a cookie kind of a thing. The truth is I’ll go upstairs and I’m going to go put something in laundry and I see something in laundry that needs to go down to the kitchen. I go to the kitchen, oh my goodness, I got to do this in the kitchen. It’s kind of… It’s a technique, I think. Let’s call it out a technique.
Kristi: That’s right. That’s our organizational technique for creating chaos and projects throughout the house.
Heidi: That’s right, exactly.
Kristi: All at the same time. Yes, and that’s really when I am following, especially that baby steps rule and taking it one thing at a time and breaking things down, it really helps. And that’s where the 10 rules come from. I kind of giggle because I introduce decluttering in that section. So decluttering is definitely one of those foundational things, but I don’t get into decluttering systems until the second part of the book. Because if you don’t have those foundational things, it doesn’t help. Think about it, you can organize all that you want, I can show you great ways to use your space a lot more wisely and more efficiently, but if you are just organizing stuff that should be in the trash can, that does not help you.
Heidi: Hey, and this is tough. I feel like people fall into one of two categories. They’re either the person that throws everything away maybe to the point where they overthrow things away.
Kristi: Oh yeah, I have some friends that do that.
Heidi: Or we’re kind of hoarders, worried about— “but what if I need that?” “Maybe I do need that third colander because you just never know when you’re going to have 28 people at your house and you’ll have to be rinsing things all over the place”.
Kristi: I know and I think that is one of the weird dilemmas is that we do that “just in case” thing. Like, “Oh no, just in case”, and we’re actually in the process of renovating. I stopped saying remodeling. We are renovating our house.
Heidi: Renovating that has such a Renaissance sound to it.
Kristi: Right, it’s so fancy. I’m like “we’re in the middle of Reno”. My kids are like Reno? But it actually really forced me to take a look at —what do we need? Like, what are the bare bones that we need and then I was moving everything else out of the kitchen and the kitchen was my, I didn’t realize how much I was somewhat hoarding in my kitchen because I hid things up high and far back that I couldn’t see. And so I was like, Oh yeah, if I need it. But then when I was taking everything out I’m like, “I really don’t need this.” And so I was just…
Heidi: And you don’t even remember that it’s there because when you put them high up and far back, three years is going to go by and then one day you’re going to go, “I should clean my kitchen.” And you’re going to go, “I had no idea I had that.”
Kristi: Oh yeah. Like a panini press. I don’t even think I ever used it but I had a panini press just in case. That would have been really fancy.
Heidi: Yeah I got rid of mine. I think I bought it at the Goodwill and I sent it back there.
Kristi: Exactly. Well, and that’s the beauty is that that’s one of the approaches I have with decluttering. Is that I stopped thinking about like, just donating, and I call it blessing because if we can turn that around, the whole KonMari method of like “does it spark joy?”
Heidi: “Does it spark joy?”
Kristi: How many of us have stood in front of our closet and been like, “Yep, nope nothing in here is sparking joy.”
Heidi: Nope, nothing. Get rid of all of it.
Kristi: It’s like “start over!”. But when we look at our things as blessings, like “this isn’t really something I need right now, so I wonder if it can bless a friend?”. When you find things that still have tags on it and you’re like, “And I’d never fit into that and I’m going to stop trying to achieve that goal and pass them on to a friend”. Or it maybe it just got hidden. I found a cute kid outfit that had tags and it didn’t… My child had grown by a few years and so I passed it on to friends and same with just things you’re getting rid of.
Is why not take it to Goodwill. Actually, we go to Salvation Army for all of our donating and so we take it there and it’s really neat to even hear stories about people that go into consignment shops or go into Salvation Army stores and find things that they really needed, and it was because someone was willing to let go of it.
Heidi: All right so go over, we’ve got a few minutes left. Can you go over like just say the three of those foundational tips? And then I kind of want to do a breeze through the table of contents here because I always think that’s interesting. When I go to get a book, the first thing I do is look at the table of contents.
Kristi: I know. Yeah, me too. It’s funny because they wanted to take out my little, I put the rule and then I had like the little subtitle for the rule and they’re like, “Oh let’s take that out.” I’m like, “Oh no, no, no, people need to know what that is.”
Heidi: No, they do. I love it. It’s right in the table of contents. So those 10 simple rules that will change your home life. So I love this one because this is something I talk about all the time. Rule number two, Don’t forget your top prioritiesL choosing which balls to drop. Talk to the mom who just can’t drop anything.
Kristi: Yes. So that is the hardest thing is we try to do it all because we think everybody else is doing it all and that just doesn’t work for anybody because no one is truly doing it all. You and I can attest to that because if it looks like I’m doing it all, it’s because I’m doing things, one thing at a time and it just might just all come out at the same time. But, in life we need to have priorities. So we kind of have, in the Clover house, we kind of do this prioritizing with our four F’s because we’re the Four Leafs.
So we do faith, family, friends, and fellow man in that order. So when we sit down, especially right now in like the beginning of a school year, or just beginning of the year is good too, but anytime you have big shifts in your schedule and things are getting added, we like to take a look at what’s coming into our schedule because— I’m sorry, but you can’t get to your house if you’ve got a busy schedule.
Heidi: That’s right, preach.
Kristi: Yeah. So we try to be really selective about what we allow into our schedules and into our home and just all of that because you cannot do it all. And so we try to pick what’s really best and sometimes it’s been hard through the years. I mean we said no to Awana.
Kristi: Awana! You’d think like, “Oh, Awana is so awesome.” But we were doing Bible study at home and we were doing Bible memory at home and it was one more night that we were all out and my husband was still traveling at that point. So we just decided it was not wise for us to do that. We’re a big sports family, we had to take basketball off our plate at one point because we had too many moving parts. And so when you are allowing that space, you can actually allow some breathing room, and when you have breathing room then you will feel up for maybe trying to tackle other things in your house.
So that’s one of my big things is trying to encourage people to really look at, not only their priorities with what they’re allowing into their schedule, but even in their home. And with that, we have to prioritize what we’re trying to get done in our house because it’s nice to have the whole house clean and tidy all at the same time.
Heidi: That’s so nice.
Kristi: It is so nice and when it happens, it’s like you need to do yourself a little good middle happy dance and like turn some music on and don’t knock anything over. But we’re looking at that, like Steve and I have kind of come up with this thing. I had him pick two things and I picked two things. For him, counters are like his drive you crazy nails on a chalkboard to him, in his little heart— if the counters are just super cluttered, which is hard because I am a pile person. I struggle with that.
Heidi: Flat spaces are your nemesis.
Kristi: Yeah. No, so I have to be careful. I cannot add in my closet. I can’t put a chair in there. I can’t put anything cute for me to sit on because it will become a dumping ground and I just know that about myself so I don’t have that. But for him counters are a big thing and then knowing that there’s a game plan for meals is really helpful for him. Even if it’s pizza, he just wants to know that we have a plan and that’s something he doesn’t have to think about or if he is supposed to be the one like—you’re on grill duty. So you know, that’s important to him. For me, because maybe we started off just a house with three boys and a husband—toilets. Yes the whole bathroom is great but like seriously I just want the toilets and the area around the toilets clean.
And floors, I don’t stepping on things like you were saying earlier, like tripping on things drives me badly. I am on the move, I am on the go and I’m not always looking where I’m going. So that was a really important rule, that’s why it’s number two. It was number one in the original but my first rule since we didn’t really talk about that is gleaning and tweaking and that was really important to me and I think that’s kind of what makes my technique a little different. Is that I feel like as moms we take way too much time to try to reinvent the wheel and why don’t we look at people who are having success with something and not feel guilty over it and not feel like—and even don’t feel like it’s the end all be all. You have to tweak it to work for your family dynamics.
So those are just two of my fun little rules but….
Heidi: I love it. And really, you have the first part of the book are those rules. Planning ahead, overcoming laziness.
Kristi: I didn’t want to put it in there but it’s true. If my house is really messy, It’s usually because I’m being a little lazy.
Heidi: I love it because you went through these rules but then you put systems in place, which I really love. De-cluttering systems, organizing systems, storage, chores. My goodness, I always laugh because I’ve been talking about… I wrote a book called The Busy Homeschool Mom’s Guide to Daylight a long time ago because a lot of the same stuff in it. And I’m laughing because I’m like—the chore thing. Really, I’ll do a chore chart for my kids and it’ll work for about three months. And you have to just go, “Well it looks like it’s time to change it up.” Instead of giving up, just change it up.
Kristi: Exactly, and that’s exactly what you have to do. We’ve been laughing because our little chore chart doesn’t work in like renovation mode.
Kristi: And we’ve been going so hard and fast with the book launch that I’m like, okay people like just listen to what I’m assigning to everyone. But that is one of the major things we need to kind of shift here probably this next week. It’s just making sure everybody’s very clear in what they’re doing. And that’s really what chore systems are about, is just figuring out what is working best because not every kid is going to jive with understanding. You might have some kids that need a visual, they might need to see exactly what it is.
Heidi: I’m going to give you a visual.
Kristi: That’s right.
Heidi: That’s right. Well I love this. I love it because there’s a whole section in here on why it’s so important to train your kids to help you around the house and I have been amazed on how controversial that has become. Or just having your kids help. Every time I post about it, somebody will say, “I can’t believe you’re not letting kids enjoy their childhood.” And I’m just like, “Really, right now.” Because I’m not training children, I’m training adults and I love, you call them little interns. :Hey I’d like to give you a laundry internship” and this is how it’s going to go.
Kristi: I had a post where I mentioned, I don’t even know, I think it was a hashtag chores systems. I didn’t even say chores, I just said training your kids to help.
Heidi: Oh, don’t say train. “Is it a puppy or a child? We train puppies Kristi, get it right.”
Kristi: Oh right. Well no, I was accused of like slave labor. How dare I, and I was like, excuse me. I’m like, “so is it kindness to send my child out into the world and not know how to do laundry and not know how to cook?”
Heidi: Yeah and just not equipped.
Kristi: I know because I think how hard it was for me to learn some of the small details I didn’t learn in my childhood. I was raised my single mom and I learned to do a lot of things but there’s obviously things I didn’t learn and so it was hard learning how to do all of those other little fine details and yet the things that I was really good at, that I had to do on my own, It was awesome.
Like I can iron a shirt and iron a pair of pants in no time flat because I had a lot of ironing that I had to do. Not so much anymore.
Heidi: No, well now it’s like we get the wet washcloth and throw it in the dryer with the shirt and hope that the wrinkles come out. That’s my new method.
Kristi: I had somebody tell me ice cubes, they put ice cubes in the dryer. I’d never thought of it. Yeah, that’s what they do. Ice cubes. Never heard of it before.
Heidi: That’s a great idea.
Kristi: I know, I have not tried it yet.
Heidi: I will do almost anything to get out of ironing. Almost anything. I mean, not anything, but pretty close.
Kristi: Jay’s like “anything?”
Heidi: Right. Anything?
Kristi: I know. I saw your recent picture of you two making out on a couch.
Heidi: That’s right baby. I know we just had our 30th anniversary.
Kristi: That is so awesome, congratulations.
Heidi: It was really good. We actually took a day and we went into Portland and this guy is like an ACLU, you know, like a protestor and he saw us on the sidewalk cause we were walking in the Pearl District and, and it was so beautiful, sunny day, gorgeous in Portland. And he said, “Hey, you know how you make your sunny day even better?” And I was like, “No”. He said, “Help me sue the government.” I said, “Oh.” I said, “I’m actually a lifelong conservative who voted for Trump, you probably don’t want to talk to me.” And he was like, “Yeah, you’re right.”
It was great. I think he was looking at me like, “there are conservatives in Portland? I had no idea”. “I know, I can’t believe it, it’s amazing”. I’m like, yep, we’re here to stay and we’re out!
Golly. Well, Kristi you are a delight. Your new book is fantastic. I was so happy that I got a chance to endorse it and if people want to find it. If they want to get a copy of your book, what’s the best way for them to do that?
Kristi: You can get my book anywhere books are sold, but if you want more information and just want a see every place you can get it, all in one spot. They can go to my website, which is KristiClover.com/mombook
Heidi: Ooh, I like that, that’s great.
Kristi: Isn’t that cute?
Heidi: I like it. Well, this is great. For those of you who are looking for help getting organized and actually, I think you’re going to put this book down feeling like “I could actually do it, I can do it”, which is really the point. So Kristi Clover, you are fantastic. I wish you all the best. I hope the book does fantastic.
Kristi: Oh, thank you so much and thanks for having me on your show. This was so fun.
Heidi: It was fun. We’ll do it again. We won’t wait until you write another book. We’ll do it again.
Kristi: Please don’t, I’m taking a little break right now.
Heidi: I don’t blame you.
All right. Thank you friend. For more information on Kristi Clover, please visit her website, KristiClover.com I will link back to all things, Kristi Clover in the show notes today, and if you want more information about where I will be, please go to Heidistjohn.com/events. As always, we’d love it if you leave feedback for the podcast over at iTunes and if you have a question that you’d like to see addressed at mailbox Monday, go to my page, Heidistjohn.com/mailboxmonday and fill out that form and we will answer your question on the air. Have a great Friday everybody, and I’ll see you back here on Monday.
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Heidi St. John
c/o Firmly Planted Family
11100 NE 34th Cir, Vancouver, WA 98682
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