There’s a new wave of Christians converting to a belief in the flat earth, and it’s having a serious impact on our world. Are you equipped to give Biblical and scientific answers to questions that will inevitably come from family and friends?
Transcribed version of podcast is below.
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- Romans 1:21-23
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Pat Roy served at the Institute for Creation Research for 12 years as the Director of Broadcast Media. It was during this time at ICR that he and his wife created the Jonathan Park audio dramas, a creation-based audio drama heard by millions around the world. They recently created a new audio drama called, Time Chroniclers. Pat has served as Director at Genesis Apologetics. He has traveled the nation speaking to hundreds of audiences, of all ages, about the importance of trusting God’s Word.
Kyle Justice: Emmy nominated producer Kyle Justice began producing television projects as a teenager, which led him to work for and produce programming for major cable networks such as The Family Channel, ESPN, and National Geographic. In 1997 he partnered with Ken Ham at Answers in Genesis to produce the first creation kids show, “The X-Nilo Show”. This eventually led to him establishing Awesome Science Media, a prolific producer of creation science media used by homeschool families and aired throughout the world. Kyle is the homeschool dad of eight kids and married to Dawn since 1991.
Hey everybody. This is Heidi St. John. Welcome to the podcast. Today is Friday, November 15th. This is Meet My Friend Friday. It’s episode number 845. I’ve got a real treat for you guys here at the podcast today. Two of my favorite guys here at the Firmly Planted Family Homeschool Resource Center are here today, and we’re going to talk about a theory that some of you guys think actually isn’t gaining traction in the culture, but it is. That is the issue of flat Earth.
Stick around. I think you’re going to be encouraged.
All right, so lots of things going on in the culture right now and we’re going to address some of them today, but before I jump into that one, I’ll let you guys know where I’m going to be next. Thanks for everybody who came out for the speaking season. I’m winding down to a close. I’ve got one more event before the end of the year. I will be at Godspeak Calvary Chapel on Friday, December the 6th for their women’s event there. Come on out and see me if you’re anywhere in the area. Kind of cool. I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time. These guys- I mean who doesn’t want to go to California in the winter time? Right? So that’s where I’ll be if you’re looking for me. And so you can check it out. More information at heidistjohn.com/events. After that, I’m going to take some time off for Christmas. You’re welcome. And then we come back and I will be keynoting the FPEA Family Cruise. So we’re going to be going to the Caribbean. So if you guys haven’t found out more information about that, you can find that out at heidistjohn.com/events. I’m pretty sure that the cruise for FPEA is sold out, but I’m told that there are a couple more rooms at a regular rate. So just let us know you’re coming, and we’ll put you in with a group. So we’ll find out more about that.
I’ll be at the DFW winter summit on the 24th of January and again on the 31st of January. So, busy season for me coming up. You can find out where I will be at heidistjohn.com/events. Thanks for listening to the podcast today. I’m excited you guys are here because I’m going to do something I haven’t done before, and that is talk about the issue of flat Earth.
My friends, Pat Roy and Kyle Justice are here in the studio with me today. Pat served at the Institute for Creation Research for 12 years as the director of broadcast media. And during his time at the ICR he and his wife created an audio series that you guys are going to be familiar with, Jonathon Park, which was a creation based audio drama heard by literally millions around the world, including my kids. Pat’s someone of a legend around here at Firmly Planted, and he recently created a new audio drama called Time Chroniclers. So we’ll link back to that in the show notes today. Pat has served as director at Genesis Apologetics and traveled the nation speaking to hundreds of audiences of all ages about the importance of trusting God’s word.
I let Kyle into the studio today on a whim. Kyle is an Emmy nominated producer. Kyle Justice began producing television projects as a teenager. Some of you guys have teens that are interested in producing and being coming producers. I am always telling you, “Dude, let them go for it,” because we want to fold our kids where they’re bent. I think Kyle’s a great example of that. This led him to work for and produce programming for major cable networks such as The Family Channel, ESPN, and National Geographic. In 1997, he partnered with my friend Ken Ham at Answers in Genesis, to produce the first creation kid show called The X-Nilo Show. I didn’t know you did that. I watched that. We’ll get back to you. This eventually led him to establishing Awesome Science Media, a prolific producer of creation science media, used by homeschool families and aired throughout the world. Kyle is a homeschool dad of eight kids and married to his beautiful wife Dawn since 1991. Guys, welcome to the podcast.
[Pat] Yeah. Thanks for having us here.
[Kyle] Yeah, that was a great intro.
[Pat] No kidding, thank you.
[Heidi] It’s almost like you wrote it yourself.
[Heidi] Almost. You guys, I’m excited that you’re here. So lots of stuff going on with you. You guys are out there getting it done. You’re what I like to call here at the podcast, we call it #offthebench. Off the bench and onto the battlefield and you guys are kind of in the middle of what can only be described I think, as a cultural battle. So I’m going to intro it this way. So my audience is used to me talking about controversial subjects. I actually love controversy because I feel like speaking truth into controversy actually sheds light on it, rather than just saying there’s a controversy. I say, let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about it from the position of the word of God, which you guys are doing. One of the things we started talking about here about four years ago was the topic of transgenderism.
I remember saying, “Oh, this will never… This is never going to take root in the culture. People are smarter than that”. No, they’re not. No, they’re not. And transgender is now of course, a force in the culture, largely because I think the church was silent and they thought like I did, “Oh, come on. Like no one’s going to believe this. Men can’t change into women, vice versa”. But I was wrong. And one of the… A similar topic is this issue of flat Earth. I heard about this right around four and a half years ago. I can’t remember where Jay and I were, but I met a woman at a homeschool conference. I was there with my friend Jay Wile, and he had a booth sort of behind me. You guys know Jay, sort of the… He is a physicist, right?
He’s a rocket scientist. I’m always like, what are you a rocket sci- oh nevermind. Yes you are. And this woman came up to me and I’m talking to her about what I’m passionate about, which is faith and culture. And she said, “what do you think about flat Earth?” And I started laughing and I was like, “Oh.” She wasn’t laughing, and I said, “Wait a minute, like you’re asking me for real?” And she said, “Yeah.” She said, “I really want to know.” And she began talking about her husband and basically it sounded almost cultish to me the way she was describing it. So I did my friend Jay Wile a favor, and I was like, hang on, I got someone you need to meet. So I took her, because I can’t answer this woman’s questions. I haven’t studied this thing.
All I wanted to say was, have you ever been in an airplane? Which I said to her, and she had this weird answer for me being in an airplane and how that did not- the curvature that I saw wasn’t actually right. And I thought, I can’t do this. So I took her over to Jay Wile and I said, Jay, I want you to meet my new friend and blah, blah, blah. I said, I can’t remember, let’s say her name is Mandy, for the sake of the discussion. I said, “Mandy”, I literally said this- in hindsight, maybe it wasn’t the right call, but I said, “Mandy, tell Dr. Wile what he’s won.”
And she kind of looked at me like, “what do you mean?” I said, “I’m so sorry. Tell him what you just told me”. And so she started saying, “Well, Heidi and I were just discussing the issue of flat Earth.” And Jay looked at me like, “are you for real right now?” And I was like, “Oh look at the time, I got to go.” And I left her there, right, to which this day, every time he sees me now out on the road, he’s just like, dude, you still owe me dinner. And he’s right.
But you guys deal with this issue all the time. And I guess the first one, the first thing I want to ask you, cause I know that my audience is like, “What? Is this really a thing? Is this really an issue?”
[Kyle] Well, I first started hearing about it through Dr. Danny Faulkner who works for Answers in Genesis, and he kept doing these posts on flat Earth. And I’m like, he’s joking. I think. April 1st came out last year or the year before, and he was all over it, and I’m like, is this for real or not? So, I called him up and he goes, yeah, it’s for real. And he’s even working on a book on it and selling. I’m like, I’m doing all these documentaries, and Pat and I had been working together on some other projects. It’s like, “Pat, maybe we should do a documentary on this.”
[Pat] Right. And at first it sounded like a really interesting topic, but the further we’ve gotten into this, the deeper the rabbit hole goes.
[Heidi] It’s terrifying.
[Pat] It really is and Heidi, I’ve become convinced that this is another distraction that is calling Christian men away from being fathers and being husbands and getting out the gospel. Because we have gotten emails from wives who say, I am desperate. My husband has pulled us out of church. We no longer read the scriptures except for to prove that the Earth is flat. He no longer interfaces with the children and he no longer talks to people about Christ, but now he’s a missionary of flat Earth. We’ve also heard of a church that has split over this issue and so we have gotten all kinds of messages from all kinds of people.
Heidi actually, I think about it this way. If I was say, trying to distract men from doing what they’re really called to, I would come up with an issue that doesn’t really matter and make it seem like it’s the most important thing on Earth. And that’s what we found, what the flat Earth movement is those that are convinced that the Earth is flat. They believe that it is the most important thing and that is how they spend all of their time— is trying to convince others that the Earth is flat.
[Heidi] Isn’t that amazing? It seems to me that we are very, I mean this was from Genesis. We are a very easily deceived people, right? I mean you can hear Satan whispering in Eve’s ear, :you won’t surely die, it’s not that. God didn’t mean it. Did God really say:- and God really did say. So, when you guys see how this is affecting Christian families and you see how it’s affecting the world around you, your response has been to say, “Oh no, we’re going to show you, let’s actually take this up from a scientific standpoint,” which is largely what Answers in Genesis been doing all this time saying, listen, the Bible can actually stand up to your criticism. Let’s have the conversation and you guys have found a really unique way to do that. How did you come up with this idea, and sort of where is it taking you?
[Kyle] Well, it’s interesting because it seems like there’s two camps in the flat Earth movement. There’s the secular flat Earth movement, and then there’s the biblical, flat Earth movement. I mean, Heidi you said, “Hey, let’s show them the scriptures, it would make sense,” but there’s a whole camp of Christians that are using the scriptures to prove that the Earth is flat.
[Heidi] That’s the lady at my booth, she was quoting scriptures to me and I was like, okay, I don’t even know what to do with you now.
[Kyle] And I mean all over history you have different groups that are quoting scriptures to prove their little points and so on. And so what we have really had to do when we looked at the documentary and what did we have to present in it was, gee, I think we have to go after, not just the scientific side first, but the biblical whole model of what verses are they using? And then did they really work?
[Heidi] So we’re talking about this to a lot of people who have never heard of flat- they’re like, uh-uh, it’s kind of a big deal though. Like if you were to get on the Internet and start searching the flat Earth theories- and I saw a guy in the airport, before the show aired, I was telling you guys, I used to think, Oh, this will never catch on. Just like the lie of transgenders, and which it really is a lie, right? That we’ve just believed. And I saw a guy in the airport not too long ago and he had- yes, the Earth is flat. Asked me why, and I was like, I’m not touching that with a ten foot pole.
Then I think what you guys are doing is so cool because what you’re saying is, we need to engage. As Christians, we need to understand the argument, right? And be able to engage and the Bible says that we’re supposed to be able to give an answer for the hope that lies within us. And what you’re doing is you’re equipping Christians to engage in this discussion with an answer. And so, where do we start? You’re saying it’s relevant. Pat why do you say it’s relevant? Why should people care about this issue?
[Pat] Well, Heidi I think that there are more people converting to the idea of the flat Earth than any other time in history. I think it’s really affecting churches. I think most churches, from what I’ve seen, most of them have never even heard of this, right? People just disappear from their congregations and they don’t know why. Or, the other response is, well, that’s ridiculous. That’ll never catch on.
[Heidi] That was me. Are you making fun of me right now, Pat? You making fun of me on my own podcast?
[Pat] There you go.
[Heidi] Back it up there, brother.
[Kyle] Never, never.
[Pat] So I think those are the ways. And so, either they’re ignoring it or they think it’s ridiculous. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people are converting to this idea that the Earth is flat, and I just think it’s a dangerous idea. I think it’s having a huge impact on families and churches and nobody even really realizes it’s an issue.
[Heidi] Well, why should we care? I mean, you’re saying it’s a dangerous idea. And I’m like, who cares? So they think the Earth is flat, why do I care?.
[Pat] Well, again, I think the shape of the Earth really doesn’t matter, right? It really doesn’t matter. But what does matter is the fruits that we see from it. And again, we’re getting emails from wives whose husbands have completely pulled them out of church. We’ve gotten emails from churches that have said that they have split. We’re just seeing negative fruits from all of this. And my goodness, Heidi, once you get involved in the flat Earth, it seems like it consumes these people, and then all of a sudden they’re not out sharing the gospel anymore.
[Kyle] And not just in the U.S., too. I’ve heard Latin America, it’s spreading like wildfire there, too. So you know, it’s going around the world.
[Pat] Around the world.
[Heidi] What look what just happened! There are flat Earthers all around the globe.
[Pat] We actually, in our documentary went out on the streets. And I’ve got a clip with me where we actually went out onto the streets and talk to people about what they thought about the flat Earth.
[Heidi] So this is your documentary, your new one, Faith on the Edge, right? And this is a sampling of you guys talking to ordinary people about what they think. Let’s hear it.
[Pat] Okay. So Kyle, we’ve heard that this idea is really popular, but I would like to hear what people are actually thinking.
[Kyle] Let’s take it to the street.
[Pat] Many people these days are starting to believe that the Earth is flat. What do you think about that?
Person 1: That’s still a thing?
Person 2: It’s round, just keeps going around and around and around, man.
Person 3: It looks pretty flat to me, but I think it’s round. Saturn’s round, Jupiter round. Everything else is round.
Person 4: I was actually reading something the other day that said, the Earth is in a donut shape.
[Pat] And the moon is a coffee, right?
Person 4: You never know, it could be flat.
Person 5: I think that it’s whatever they tell us.
[Kyle] Okay, whatever they tell us so… But there’s some people that say round, some that say flat. What do you think?
Person 5: I think unless we actually go out there and explore it for ourselves, there’s no way that we can actually know what it is.
Person 6: No, I don’t think the Earth is flat.
[Pat] You think it’s round?
Person 6: Yeah, I guess- yeah, you’re right. I guess it’s round.
[Pat] Really? I just convinced you just like that?
Person 7: There’s a lot of compelling evidence that, the possibility that the Earth is flat. While in other cases the Earth is actually around, and the Bible doesn’t really talk about the Earth being round.
[Pat] What shape do you think the Earth is?
Person 8: Triangle? I feel like that’d be a tough sell.
[Pat] You think it’d be a- I bet it’s not as tough as you would think it would be.
Person 9: I don’t know. I think the Earth is definitely round. For people that believe the Earth is flat, maybe that’s true.
[Kyle] It wouldn’t be the two different shapes at the same time though. Is that what you’re saying?
Person 9: I don’t know. I mean our personal beliefs create our realities I guess, so I think it can kind of be both at the same time.
[Kyle] So do you know anybody who does believe in the flat Earth?
Person 9: Yes. One of my good friends is a flat Earther, yes.
Person 10: No, I don’t have any friends.
Person 11: Tons of boys at my school.
Person 12: Yeah, definitely.
Person 13: There’s people who say they do. I think it’s definitely a cultural trend.
Person 14: Kind of caught me by surprise when I found out, but yeah.
[Kyle] Why did they become so passionate about it, it almost seems like they become evangelists of the Flat Earth.
Person 15: It’s like it’s an anti kind of movement.
Person 16: A lot of people now are just starting to identify in an idea or a party versus themselves.
Person 17: Those people need to find hobbies.
[Kyle] Maybe that is their hobby. Just using your own observations, why do you think the Earth is round?
Person 18: Well, I can… Got me right there.
Person 19: Why the Earth is round… It’s very hard to explain that. I don’t…
Person 18: My own senses. Nothing I’ve been told.
Person 20: I would say just from the pull of gravity and then also you look at the day night cycle to the rest of the world.
Person 24: Until they show evidence, that’s when I will actually start looking into it.
Person 21: But he’s saying the same thing about people who believe that the Earth is round. We’ve been given these facts.
Person 22: To say that the Earth is flat is basically rejecting all of the scientific evidence that we’ve compiled.
[Kyle] Why do you think that young, younger people are the ones that are having a harder time accepting these things?
Person 23: Where do you look next for young people to be upset? Kind of overthrow the man, overthrow the machine, is going to be at the government. And I think that’s where a lot of these tensions and these questions kind of raise from.
[Kyle] Well, Pat that was really fascinating to learn what everyday people are thinking about the flat Earth.
[Pat] It was interesting that some of them were actually questioning the shape of the Earth. And then almost all of them had friends or family that believed that the Earth was flat. And then it was also interesting that they couldn’t defend their own observable facts on why the Earth is round.
[Kyle] That’s fascinating. My favorite guy was the guy who said “whatever your truth is, that’s what the Earth is shaped.”
[Pat] That was really interesting to me.
[Heidi] All right, so you’ve got a pretty good smattering of people there with kind of differing ideas and differing opinions. I thought it was really interesting that when you say, well, why do you say that the Earth is round? Some we’re like— “uhhh”. I mean if somebody asked me why the Earth is round, I’ll just be like, cause I saw a picture of it.
[Pat] But those were all faked by NASA.
[Heidi] I heard that.
[Kyle] Now, Heidi what’s interesting is when I go out to speak now on general creation topics, not even talking about the flat Earth, but just talk about scientific evidence for creation. I now will ask the audience, how many of you either believe the Earth is flat, or know somebody personally that does believe that the Earth is flat? And about a third of the hands go up, nowadays.
[Heidi] That’s crazy town. I mean it seems crazy to me. I was thinking about this as I’m listening to these people, I’m all for being open minded, right. That’s a big thing. Tolerance, open-minded. It’s like we’ve gotten so open-minded that our brains have fallen out. And I was thinking that really what’s happening0 and this is kind of where I’d like to sort of segue this conversation a little bit.
And I heard you talking about these women are writing you, and they’re saying their husbands are leaving their families, they’re pulling their kids out of church. They’re basically worshiping at the idol— of the altar of flat Earth right now. And it seems like a distraction. But I wrote in my notes it seems to me that evangelism for anything else is really idolatry. We can do this in the homeschool movement, right? I mean I can sit here, Pat, you and I have had this discussion, over the last couple of years for sure. People that we have seen that worshiped homeschooling. And homeschooling is the answer and homeschooling this, and homeschooling that. If we’re not turning people back toward Jesus, then it doesn’t really matter what we’re saying. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if the Earth is round or the Earth is flat. These guys, if they don’t have the gospel, they’re going to Hell. And that’s the bottom line.
[Pat] Well, I would say for the Christian flat Earth movement, I think most of them are actually Christians who have trusted Christ the savior. I just feel like they’re distracted. And so I want to say very clearly, I don’t think the flat Earth is a salvation issue. But what I do think is it’s a distraction issue. I think it’s taking people away from the gospel, from their wives, from their children, from their families, from their churches. That’s what I think is happening.
[Kyle] You think about Pilgrim’s Progress and how, Christians, that these different groups would get distracted in these towns and stuff, and not go the path that God has for them.
[Heidi] He’s on his way to the Celestial City but he forgot. He forgot!
[Kyle] And I’ve compared the flat Earth to that type of thing. Where these men, and training their families onto the next generation to serve and love the Lord. It’s not happening now because of the flat Earth.
[Heidi] And when you guys meet people who like me, I’m going to kind of swing it back around to this because I always feel like whenever I address topics like this with an audience that’s feeling already overwhelmed, right? There’s so many problems like Heidi, do you have to talk about one more thing? Next week I’m just going to have somebody come on and we’re going to talk about how to bake gingerbread cookies, all right? That’ll be the next thing we do because we don’t have to argue about it, or wonder if the gingerbread is actually real or if it’s flat or not. You can add more baking powder and it’ll be a little rounder or…
[Kyle] You believe gingerbread is flat?
[Heidi] But so here’s my thing. How can we encourage, cause we’re going to run out of time for today’s show. I’m going to bring you guys back because I want to talk about the scientific problems with the flat Earth theory. I want our listeners to really hear the science behind it, but I’d like to leave them today with an understanding of why this matters to them and is there a reason for them to engage in the conversation, to where if they encounter somebody that believes this, they will have an answer because it rather than just say, here’s another big problem for you guys, I want to give them kind of hope. Really that’s what you’re doing. That’s what your new documentary Faith on the Edge is about. You guys have been out there, you’re doing the research for us. Thank you very much. Doing the research for us, so that we can get a better of the issue at hand. Right? Was that the motivation behind the documentary?
[Kyle] Well, we began talking about this right at the beginning, because we realized that usually flat Earthers are so committed that you don’t often see them come back out of believing in the flat Earth again. So we said, well, what is the purpose of our documentary? Is it to try and turn flat Earthers back into round Earthers? Well, no, not really. I think more what our calling has been with this is to try and educate people. So if they are a wife, or children or whatever, they understand the issues. But I think most importantly of all, it’s to stop people from going to the flat Earth in the first place. We feel like if we can give them the evidence ahead of time, that when they’re confronted with it, that they already understand what the issues are, and already understand why the flat Earth is not a valid position.
[Pat] I think so many of the— what how many verses? Like 200 references to the flat Earth, the flat Earthers.
[Kyle] Right and hopefully in our next episode we can talk about those because that’s really the commitment of a lot of flat Earthers is they believe that the biblical positions says that the Earth is flat. And so I think we need to kind of address that a little bit and show why that…
[Pat] And the thing is we wanted to help other Christians who run into this, these verses that are being used. Really what the context of the passage is. So they’re not sitting there going, “Oh wow, it does say that.”
[Heidi] Right, so they’re not confused.
[Pat] And then they begin to question. So, we’re doing some apologetics at the same time. And that was a big goal, especially the first half of the documentary.
[Heidi] And the Christian Church really doesn’t see this as an issue right now. I mean I don’t hear churches talking about this. I don’t feel like I kind of feel like it’s going to slap them upside the head. Frankly, like the transgenderism issue. And when I wrote Becoming MomStrong two years ago, a lot of what I was saying, the premise behind that was, this generation of parents is dealing with questions that previous generations didn’t even see coming. And so part of the reason why I want to have you guys on the show is to say, get ready cause this question is coming. You are going to get asked it. Somebody at some point is going to say, “Hey, I believe blah, blah, blah,” which really a lie from the enemy, right? And it is I think a source of distraction, but also it takes away from the creator. And, and we do this. I mean this is the enemy, right? Over time, just distracting us with different things. And so in that regard, it really does matter.
One more thing before I wrap the show up for today. When someone says to you, let’s say just a mom or a dad is listening. I know there’s a lot of men listening to this today, and they’re like, “what? This isn’t really a thing.” Why should they care about this issue? Why should it matter to the average person who’s like, “I don’t know if I’m ever going to even be and why should I care one way or the other?”
[Pat] Well, I think you’re definitely, if you haven’t already, you’re going to encounter somebody who believes in the flat Earth. It has become so common now. Everybody is going to run into somebody who believes it.
[Kyle] And their kids, a lot of their kids are running into this. And we’re hearing about kids asking their parents, “Hey, what about this? So, how do I interpret what they’re saying?” And the parents often don’t have the answers. And so we want to prepare parents to be able, when their kids have questions, they’ll be able to say, “oh yeah, here’s the context and here’s the science of behind it”. So we’re providing tools for parents to be able to talk to the kids about this.
[Heidi] And so really what you’re helping parents do is to get ahead of it, to get out ahead of it. And I love that. I’m going to read from the back of your new DVD that just cause- is it out available for people right now?
[Kyle] Came out last March.
[Heidi] Fantastic. So it says on the back, it says there’s a new wave of Christians converting to a belief in the flat Earth and it’s having a serious impact on our world. Are you equipped to give biblical and scientific answers to questions that will inevitably come from family and friends? And you guys have some really great guests on this with you. Dr. Charlie Duke. You said he was Capcom for Apollo 11 and an astronaut for Apollo 16, he’s on here?
[Heidi] Wow. What was that like?
[Kyle] You were on the moon, what do you think, round or flat? You’re going to be surprised by the answer.
[Pat] He was great. I interviewed him. He was awesome.
[Heidi] Oh, that’s fantastic. So you got a really great a range of guests on here speaking to this issue. It’s a fascinating topic and I’d love it, would you guys come back next Friday and we can finish this conversation?
[Pat] We’d love to.
[Kyle] We’d love to do that.
[Heidi] All right. We’ll plan it. We’re going to come back next Friday. This is too much for one show and so I’d like these guys to come back next Friday. My friends Pat Roy and Kyle Justice here, talking about the flat Earth and why it should matter to you. And what is the answer that you can give. Thanks for listening everybody. Stay faithful and I’ll see you back here on Monday.
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Heidi St. John
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